Podcast

CBD Testing & Stopping Bad CBD Oil With Confidence Analytics

CBD Testing & Stopping Bad CBD Oil With Confidence Analytics
Ministry of Hemp Podcast

 
 
00:00 / 00:40:38
 
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Third-party CBD testing is vital to ensure consumers receive safe, quality products. Research shows many CBD oil products are fake or mislabeled.

In this episode of the Ministry of Hemp podcast, our host Matt has a conversation with Pat Reynolds, operations director at Confidence Analytics, a lab that performs cannabis testing in Redmond, Washington. CBD testing frequently reveals that many CBD oil products don’t tell you what’s actually in the bottle. Lab results and testing are one of the most important things to consider when making an informed CBD purchase, so Pat delves deep into what to look for and consider when choosing a brand.

Today’s episode was inspired in part by our recent article on CBD scams. Pat reached out to us after this article referenced a Confidence Analytics study of fake and mislabeled CBD products.

About Pat Reynolds and Confidence Labs

Pat left a successful career in the IT industry in 2014 to begin a journey in the cannabis space. Having worked as a budtender, gardener, and processor, he joined Confidence Analytics in 2015 as a lab assistant with no prior analysis experience. Having spent his career thus far loathing all aspects of sales and marketing, he is surprised yet exhilarated to find himself passionate about building Confidence into a global brand. Sales can be fun when you believe in what you’re selling. When not plotting to turn the world upside down, he and his wife April enjoy traveling and hanging out with their dog Mikki.

Confidence Labs is a state-of-the-art hemp testing lab serving hemp, CBD and recreational cannabis markets with access to ISO 17025-accredited analysis so they may meet and exceed regulatory requirements for consumer protection. They’re developing a trademarked “Tested With Confidence” program for the recreational cannabis market.

Brought to you by Canvas 1839

A bottle of Canvas 1839 CBD oil sits on a fake grass surface while, in the background, someone ties their athletic shoes.
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This episode of the Ministry of Hemp podcast is brought to you by Canvas 1839.

This episode is brought to you with help from our partners at Canvas 1839. This Austin, TX brand creates high quality CBD oil and CBD topicals using Colorado-grown, full-spectrum hemp extract. They develop their great products with the help of their chief science officer, Dr. Kyle Hammerick, a Stanford graduate.

We’re big fans of Canvas 1839 products and think you should try them too. And right now you can get 15% off your order just for being a listener to this show. Head to canvasrelief.com and use the code friend15 and you get 15% off your purchase. Thanks again, Canvas, for making this episode possible.

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Send us your hemp questions and you might hear them answered on one of our Hemp Q&A episodes. Send your written questions to us on Twitter, Facebook, [email protected], or call us and leave a message at 402-819-6417. Keep in mind, this phone number is for hemp questions only and any other inquiries for the Ministry of Hemp should be sent to [email protected]

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A composite photo showing a scientist in gloves and a mask holding up a vial of CBD oil and a hemp leaf in a petri dish. A head shot of Pat Reynolds, the show's guest, is in a round insert to the main photo. Pat comes on the podcast to discuss the importance of CBD testing to identify safe and accurately labeled products.
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CBD frequently often reveals inaccurately labeled or even unsafe products.

CBD Testing & Stopping Bad CBD Oil: Complete episode transcript

Below you’ll find the complete transcript of episode 54 of the Ministry of Hemp podcast, “CBD Testing & Stopping Bad CBD Oil”:

Matt Baum:
I’m Matt Baum. And this is the Ministry of Hemp Podcast brought to you by ministryofhemp.com. America’s leading advocate for hemp and hemp education. Welcome back to the Ministry of Hemp Podcast. We’ve got a super fun show today. Normally we talk about all the great things that CBD and hemp can do. Today we’re going to talk about some things that it doesn’t do and some problems with some products that are out there. But before we get into that, you guys are always contacting us and asking us, where should I buy my CBD from? Who should I go to?

We are super pumped to be partnered with Canvas 1839. You can find them @canvasrelief.com and stay tuned so you can find out how to get 15% off your order. But Canvas is fantastic. We’re super pumped to be partnered with them. They’re doing it the right way. I’m going to tell you all about them later on.

Today on the show, I am talking to Pat Reynolds of Confidence Analytics. They’re a lab out of Washington, and they’re quickly becoming a very well respected lab. Complete with their own brand and sticker that they can put on a product to say, “Not only have we looked at this product, but we will vouch that what they say is on the label is actually in this bottle.” You’ll hear it in our conversation, but Pat is not a guy that’s easily pulled in by fancy sales terms and mumbo jumbo. He oversees a lab that does the testing that we constantly talk about being very important on this show.

Now I went into this interview expecting all kinds of horror stories and doom and gloom to come from somebody who works in this part of the industry but I was pleasantly surprised at how optimistic and sweet his outlook is even. I’m really excited for you guys to hear this one. This is my conversation with Pat Reynolds, director of operations of Confidence Analytics. Pat, I want to welcome you to the Ministry of Hemp Podcast, thanks for hooking up with me. Normally on this show, we like to expound the values of hemp and what it can do but today we are going to talk about the other side, some of the BS, as I understand it.

Meet Pat Reynolds of Confidence Analytics

Pat Reynolds:
Yes. There have been quite a number of articles in the media and discussions online, walks on the shelf. Are you getting what the label says?

Matt Baum:
Let me ask, before we get into all that, can I ask what qualifies you to be the scam buster?

Pat Reynolds:
All right. So I work with Confidence Analytics. We are a cannabis analytics laboratory licensed by the State of Washington to provide analytics for adult use cannabis here in Washington State.

Matt Baum:
Cool.

Pat Reynolds:
So we have been testing cannabis and cannabis products and anything with cannabinoids in it for quite a long time. For five years now going on.

Matt Baum:
And it’s just like laboratory testing, basically.

Pat Reynolds:
This is laboratory testing, yeah. You hear about a lot of cannabis labs and they’re actually doing extracts, they’re making manufacturing products. But we’re actually doing compliance testing for the State and making sure that what is put on the label is actually what is in the product, making sure that there is no nasties in there, pesticide testing, microbiological testing, residual solvent testing, all that sort of stuff. That’s what we do. That’s our stock in trade.

Matt Baum:
So let me ask you, we know that there’s a lot of bunk product out there, obviously. How big of a problem is this, would you say on a scale as far as like the whole CBD market if you will. What percentage are you would you guess is total garbage?

Pat Reynolds:
So I don’t really need to guess because we’ve actually been there.

Matt Baum:
Even better. I like that even better.

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah. The reason we’re having this conversation is because I saw an article on the Ministry of Hemp talking about issues with CBD products and I submitted some feedback saying, “Hey, yeah, you quoted an article. We were actually the lab that worked with the people who wrote that article to gather the data for them. They went out and purchased the products and they asked for analysis.” We’ve done this for three separate organizations at this point. And we have, I can’t remember the exact number, 80 to 85. Certainly over 80 samples analyzed specifically for CBD content and harmful content as well. Out so of those 80 plus samples about half of them are within 10% of what they say they are.

Matt Baum:
50% is where we’re at, is what you’re saying?

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah. The other half of them have problems.

Matt Baum:
Okay.

Pat Reynolds:
Let’s put it that way.

Understanding CBD lab testing

Matt Baum:
So let’s start there. Let’s talk about problems. So it’s not just like, are you getting what’s on the label. That would obviously be the biggest issue who’s lying about what’s in there. What are some of the worst problems that you guys saw when you started testing stuff?

Pat Reynolds:
To be honest, the biggest problem that we have seen is people’s inability to do math.

Matt Baum:
As far as…

Pat Reynolds:
As far as being able to look at a certificate of analysis that you get from labs, such as us and a percentage cannabinoid content or a milligrams per gram figure and knowing what those figures mean, knowing how to work with those figures and how to apply them to your product. I mean, the number of times I’ve had to explain to people how to take a milligrams per gram. How many milligrams of cannabinoids do you have in one gram of this product?

Matt Baum:
Right.

Pat Reynolds:
And then convert that to a total unit figure. So if you have a 10 gram piece of chocolate and you have a hundred milligrams per gram of CBD, then it’s simple math. But that just really seems to escape a lot of people.

Matt Baum:
Well, math is hard, right? I mean, that’s come on.

Pat Reynolds:
I can get it. These people have a lot going on, I guess, where I’m coming it’s rare that we see people who are out to perpetuate a scam or out to do damage to people or at the pull the wool over people’s eyes. A lot of what we’ve seen is just basic errors in math and lack of understanding of what’s going on. I remember one case in particular, I was just like, wow, I could fix this problem just by moving the decimal point and that’s it, all the problems will go away. Otherwise, thing is 10 times off what it says on the label.

Matt Baum:
What are they saying in that position where, I mean what was the claim? It was a thousand milligrams, but it was actually a hundred or something. What are we talking about?

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah, it could have been the other way. I actually just remember right now I don’t have it in front of me, but it was literally one of those orders of magnitude. What was said on the label was 10 times off what was in the bottle and whether it’s over or under I mean, nobody wants to be left short. Nobody wants to be overdosed either. That’s an issue too. You need to be careful about that.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. Either way is bad. If you think you’re getting a hundred and you’re getting a thousand. Yeah. I could knock you on your butt for a while probably.

Pat Reynolds:
It could do. I mean, most of these products with CBD I don’t think they’re going to knock anybody down that hard but that said there’s a lot of [inaudible 00:08:26] we don’t know. There’s contraindications with other pharmaceuticals and stuff like that come to be, and we just don’t know yet because we haven’t had a chance investigate it.We could go down that rabbit hole too. But yeah.

Matt Baum:
Let’s go down that rabbit hole for just a second. Because you see a lot of other herbal supplements that are thrown into some of these to do different things. This helps you focus. This helps you sleep. Are there any that we know right off the bat, will invalidate the benefits of the CBD?

Pat Reynolds:
Oh, wow. No. Again my background is not in chemistry.

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Pat Reynolds:
But I haven’t seen anything out there that would neutralize [inaudible 00:09:17] and cancel them out. No, yeah.

Nanotechnology and bad CBD-infused water

Matt Baum:
The biggest discrepancy that we’re running into right now is what’s actually in the bottle. And you just gave us a case where you moved to decimal point to show what was actually in there. What’s the worst, what’s the biggest discrepancy you’ve seen with something like that as far as either over or under? What do you think the worst was?

Pat Reynolds:
I think consistently the worst are water products.

Matt Baum:
Like CBD infused water you mean?

Pat Reynolds:
CBD infused water because they’re always the most off because there’s never anything in there. So before I [inaudible 00:10:01] put that math away. Yeah, if you buy a bottle of water and you can like see through it, there’s no CBD.

Matt Baum:
There can’t be right? I mean, because what is it binding with?

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah. And it’s not like you can hide the molecules with technology or anything like that. That’s another good one that comes up. A lot of people have responded, “Oh, well, we use nanotechnology. So we actually make those molecules smaller. So maybe your instruments just can’t see them.”

Matt Baum:
That could be. Yeah, I hadn’t thought of that. Super sneaky nanotech. So let me ask you the term nanotechnology. I mean, like I try to come at this from a very skeptical point of view and I’ve always been a skeptic and a member of two skeptic societies and stuff. And I came from a science background as well and a little bit of chemistry, went into cooking because college sucked. But anyway when we throw the term nanotechnology around this stuff, does that mean anything? Does it mean anything?

Pat Reynolds:
Yes.

Matt Baum:
I know what nanotechnology is, but when it’s specifically with CBD.

Pat Reynolds:
So yes. I don’t think it means what people think it means. Traditionally, when people think of nanotechnology, they think of tiny little molecular machines.

Matt Baum:
Right. Little robots like in doing stuff.

Pat Reynolds:
They’re robots. Yes. And kind of technology. There’s a little machine that makes it smaller or something like that. That’s not what we’re talking about. Nano emulsions are actually a pretty well validated method of that drug delivery or medication delivery. And the principle is that by emulsifying the analyte of interest, so the drug that needs to get into wherever it needs to get into by encapsulating that in some sort of sugar coating or in droplets in liquids, you can basically shield the analyte of interest from getting attached to the liver for example, as it passes through. That’s what nano emulsions or nano encapsulations do.

Matt Baum:
Keep it from being filtered out of your body more or less.

Pat Reynolds:
Yes, they allow the analytes of interest to actually get into your bloodstream and not get caught up in the liver and the kidneys and things like that. So it increase bioavailability is the technical term. That’s what nano emulsions do, is they increase bioavailability.

Matt Baum:
So the problem with water, like a CBD infused water for example ,is there is nothing in the water to infuse it.

Pat Reynolds:
If that water was an emulsion yet you would not be able to see through it, that will be something else in the water.

Matt Baum:
Right. There would be stuff in it, if you will.

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah.

What can we do about bad CBD oil products?

Matt Baum:
So let me ask you, let’s say I am a CBD water company and I send my stuff to you guys to get tested, check it out let me know what you think. And you say, “Yeah, there’s nothing in here.”

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah.

Matt Baum:
What happens then? It doesn’t get taken off the shelf. It doesn’t go away. There’s no like governing board that says, “Oh, well I heard Pat said your stuff was garbage. What do you think of that?” What happens then? Anything? Or is it just…

Pat Reynolds:
We don’t do anything as the lab, again, like you said there is no governing body. I mean if the FDA was regulating this sort of stuff, then you could just initiate your recall process.

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah. Which is a normal course of events. If we’re in Canada, that’s what they would do. Get a recall process and off you go, but there is no framework for recall processes. There are companies out there who are operating to CGMP standards, and that’s where I think this needs to go, cannabinoid manufacturer. That’s the level of quality assurance and quality control. It’s gotta be GMP, GLP that national and international level of standardization and standards. But people who are operating to CGMP standards, will have a recall process that they can initiate, whether they will do that on the back of some lab in Washington telling them that they don’t know what they’re doing, is anybody’s guess.

Matt Baum:
Fair enough. `There’s a guy that I know in town that’s actually started doing like a filtered water and stuff like that. And I asked him straight up, I’m like, “Hey, have you thought about doing CBD infused water because I’ve seen so many?” And he said, “Yeah, I have. There’s not a lot of science behind it.” And I was like, really? And he didn’t really go into it beyond that, but now talking to you that all make sense. It’s like, unless we’re putting slime in there or something. There’s just telling words to stick to. And even if we did, you would just pass it right through your body.
Like if you just put the powder in there or something and it dissolves great, you’re filtering it right out and you’re pouring it in the toilet essentially at that point.

Pat Reynolds:
I mean, look, I’ve seen people have done sugar patters. Yeah. Like you pour in and there’s a pale blue color to it after you’re done so that’s what’s in there kind of thing and guess you’ve got your analytes of interest correctly encapsulated and we test that after we’ve added it to the glass of water and yeah, it’s exactly what it says on the tin.

Matt Baum:
Fair enough.

Pat Reynolds:
But that’s somebody who has done it right and paid attention to it.

A message from Canvas 1839 CBD

Matt Baum:
Right. Let’s take a quick break to talk about our partner this week, Canvas 1839 centered out of Austin, Texas, which also happens to be the de facto home of Ministry of Hemp because Kit lives there. Canvas strives to make products with the highest efficacy based on proprietary science with the help of their Chief Science Officer and Stanford grad Dr. Kyle Hammerick’s pioneering work in nanoscale biology. Canvas currently offers a relief oil that is crafted with Colorado grown full spectrum hemp extract, grown under organic practices to support your wellbeing in mind and body. Each one ounce bottle contains 300 milligrams of CBD, which is 10 milligrams per dropper.

Now they send me a bottle and I have to say, normally 10 milligrams of CBD isn’t enough for me, but I’ve really been enjoying it. I’ve been taking the relief oil in the mornings in my coffee and I feel like it brings me in for kind of a soft landing as I get to work. I’m focused and I’m awake, but the Canvas relief oil keeps me from my usual ADD morning coffee rush. And it’s actually helped with some of the aches and pains that I’ve been dealing with since I started boxing training again. They also offer a luxurious relief cream that is specifically formulated for optimal transdermal penetration and absorption, which means when you rub it on your skin, it actually goes into your skin. It leaves a very clean skin field with no residue whatsoever. There’s 500 milligrams of CBD in each two ounce jar.

My wife, who is an aerobics instructor and owns a gym has been using it and she loves it. It’s become a part of her post-workout shower regime. Canvas is a company that is just doing it right and that’s why we’re proud to partner with them. They know their farmers, they have third party lab results readily available. And right now you can get 15% off your order just for being a listener to this show, head to canvasrelief.com and use the code friend15 and you get 15% off your purchase. I would recommend their starter pack that features the two products they sent me. The relief oil and the relief cream, and both are fantastic. That’s friend15, all one word. And of course I will have a link to canvasrelief.com in the show notes for this episode. Now back to the show.

CBD testing and identifying bad CBD products

Matt Baum:
Which do you think if you had to pick one, whether it’s like tinctures or capsules or food or water, who do you think is doing the worst job right now? Opinion only you don’t have to…

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah. I mean, it’s hard to say there’s a lot of questions over bioavailability. It’s question of bioavailability and how much CBD is available in an oil based tincture or even an alcohol based tincture. People throw around figures of around less than 20%.

Matt Baum:
Right. I’ve seen that as well.

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah. So for every gram that you intake only about 0.2 of that gram is actually doing anything for you, getting into your bloodstream, which is where this nano encapsulation technology has come from. I mean, the nano-tech stuff, like I said, there is value to it as long as people understand them. And to be fair, I have seen people who have put it on their website that said, “We make the molecules smaller so they get into your body.”

Matt Baum:
We have broken the rules of physics to bring you this product.

Pat Reynolds:
I’m like, you shouldn’t be selling CBD, you should getting a Nobel prize.

Matt Baum:
Yeah, no doubt. You should travel through time and bring it to our forefathers while you’re out there.

Pat Reynolds:
But then I talked to the guys on the back and the guys who actually run the show and they’re like, “No that’s just to get the message across.” This is what we’re doing. This is how we’re doing it. And these guys, what they said was in there was actually what was in there. So again, they were doing it right. They made a choice to explain it that way in a bad science way.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. Bad marketing, bad science. I mean, even if you are a legit, it makes you look bad to somebody who has any idea you’re talking about. Like someone like you looks at that and just go, “No, that’s no.”

Pat Reynolds:
We’re going back and forth on this .

Matt Baum:
You also have found a lot of products that you said had like pesticides and whatnot. What’s the scariest stuff that you found in some of these different things that you’ve tested?

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah. Scary, scary. As you can tell, I kind of try to downplay the sensationalism a little bit.

Matt Baum:
But I got to get listeners and clicks man. Come on.

Pat Reynolds:
I know.

Matt Baum:
Tell me about the arsenic. Come on.

Pat Reynolds:
There’s reasons that there’s pesticide limits in place. Some of these compounds really do not do good things to people like action levels and stuff like.

Matt Baum:
Sure, sure.

Pat Reynolds:
We discuss everything in action levels. So above and below a threshold. So your action level is where you need to do some remediation if you like. The action levels for pesticides on just regular food are so much higher than the action levels for pesticides and cannabis and hemp based products.

Matt Baum:
And why is that?

Pat Reynolds:
There’s a reason for that because you don’t know what’s happening. So traditionally, hemp and cannabis products are combusted. So you’re going to light it on fire, or you’re going to inhale it. Right?

Matt Baum:
Yeah.

Pat Reynolds:
Via heating a coil or whatever. So that’s why the action level we’re set so low is because when you combust something like that, there was one study done this one time by some guys in Colorado, that’s all I’m going to say about it, but everybody will know about, but it’s the Eagle 20 study. And when you combust Eagle 20 it turns into arsenic I think.

Matt Baum:
Whoa, okay.

Pat Reynolds:
Maybe it was cyanides.

Matt Baum:
Either one [inaudible 00:22:48]

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah.

Matt Baum:
No, thanks.

Pat Reynolds:
You don’t want to be inhaling it.

Matt Baum:
Right.

Pat Reynolds:
But like I said, that was one study by these foreign guys one time. I think it comes back to not having the data, not being able to duke in the trials.

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Pat Reynolds:
That sort of thing. But look, let’s put it this way. We’ve tested cigarettes for pesticides because when we first got our pesticide testing equipment, our LCMS triple quads, one of our customers actually went out and purchased different brands of cigarettes and asked us to run those all across the board. Riddled with pesticides.

Matt Baum:
Really?

Pat Reynolds:
Absolutely. Even all of the natural ones.

Matt Baum:
Of course. Well, those are better for you though, right? Because they’re organic and natural cigarettes.

Pat Reynolds:
Clearly. But yeah those are combusted and those are inhaled. And that may explain why people suffer so much from smoking tobacco.

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Pat Reynolds:
So there may be some data there, again tobacco companies prevent gathering that sort of data. So it’s going to be difficult to see from that perspective, but you don’t want to be inhaling it. People say that there’s an opportunity here for hemp and cannabis to raise the bar.

Matt Baum:
Absolutely.

How consumers can find better CBD Oil products

Pat Reynolds:
Because having pesticides kind of across the board in our food supply isn’t necessarily great. And look, to be honest just because the action levels are much higher for non-hemp based products. If there’s a bunch of pesticides in my lip balm, I don’t want to be rubbing that on my lips.

Matt Baum:
Right. That’s not any better. You’ve just swapped one poison for another basically at that point.

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah. What’s the word, that’s a very subjective experience or opinion if you like. There’s very little data to back that up.

Matt Baum:
Yeah.

Pat Reynolds:
Again, this is why scary, I don’t know if scary is the word but you do look, here’s the thing you want to always pay attention to your inputs and you want your inputs to be as good as they can possibly be so that your product output at the other end can be the best quality.

Matt Baum:
So when you say inputs you’re literally talking about the hemp that comes from the farm. You want that input.

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah, for any product. Hemp or not hemp.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. Whether you’re making hemp or strawberry jelly or whatever.

Pat Reynolds:
Correct.

Matt Baum:
Cleanest you can get. So is there anything that we can look for that is a warning sign when we’re buying a product, in your opinion, like from what you’ve seen, that’s been sent you and tested. It sounds like for the most part, the biggest scam coming across is, “Look, there’s no CBD in this.”

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah.

Matt Baum:
Is there anything you can look for, like on a label or a claim that’s being made? Is there any red flag that we could see at this point in time?

Pat Reynolds:
I don’t know about red flags, but I would always recommend that people look for every hemp manufacturer and hemp CBD product manufacturer has a website and most of them have their COAs on the website.

Matt Baum:
COA like lab tests and whatnot.

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah.

Matt Baum:
Okay. So on these lab tests, how do I know what’s real? Just because somebody has lab test results, I don’t know where that lab is. I don’t know what was sent in. Is there anything that forces people to give real lab results? Can the labs get in trouble or something if it turns out this isn’t necessarily real?

Pat Reynolds:
Yes, there was a lab shut down in Oklahoma a couple of weeks ago.

Matt Baum:
Oh, really?

Pat Reynolds:
I think Oklahoma is medical and they were gonna do adult use on the ballot this year, but they have labs. One of them was just done for making up numbers and passing results without actually looking at things even here in Washington state because I mean, there’s this huge incentive for bad actors in labs [crosstalk 00:27:27] the number that they want, so that they can put the product. Yeah. There are bad actors out there that will prey on the lack of education for the consumer. And people don’t know what they’re talking about. They don’t know what they’re going to get. They’re not gonna understand all of this stuff so I’m just going to say whatever it takes to get my product sold and get that dollar out of their pocket and into mine.

Matt Baum:
Right.

Pat Reynolds:
Again, the incentives for honesty aren’t really there right now because there is no federal oversight. There’s no real regulatory framework because that’s the stick that people get beaten with.

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah. The problem then is if you have somebody who is trying to manufacture products in multiple different states yeah. There’s this whole patchwork of laws. Different action levels and different compounds that need to be tested for. And each State has got its own list of pesticides as they test for, in some States the required different levels for heavy metals and the microbial [inaudible 00:28:43] and there’s only two States that will let you add CBD.

Matt Baum:
Food manufacturers.

Pat Reynolds:
They’ve their own laws. And it’s really hard to be compliant in a situation like that.

Matt Baum:
It sounds like there’s more benefit to not being compliant right now than to actually being compliant.

Pat Reynolds:
Right. Yeah. So if you’re out there and you want to make a quick buck yeah, sure. Now is your time. If you’re out there and you want to build a lasting business and a loyal customer base because you want to put the products together and do the right thing for people. Then it’s really hard for you right now to prove to people that you’re doing the right thing.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. It seems terrifying.

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah.

Creating trust in the hemp and cannabis industries

Matt Baum:
I can say, “I sent my product to Pat, he loved it. So it was great. It’s all right there. Gave it the stamp of approval.” And people go, “Cool, Who is he?” And I go, “Oh, he’s this guy I talked to on my podcast last week. He’s a scientist. Yeah. It was really neat.” Like there’s no stamp of approval or real bar that says, “Yes, this is exactly what we’re saying it is.”

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah. That’s interesting that we’re talking about this. One of the things that we’ve done at Confidence is we’ve come up. So what we’re talking about is Trustmarks.

Matt Baum:
Okay.

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah. So you see the non GMO project.

Matt Baum:
Right, for example.

Pat Reynolds:
Pretty much everything in every store right now. If you put it in your mouth, it’s got the word organic on, it’s got the non-GMO. Those guys are literally two hours up the road here in Bellingham. We’ve done a thing called… Let me see if I can pull it here I guess. See that?

Matt Baum:
Oh yeah. Pesticide tested. Sure. With confidence.

Pat Reynolds:
Right. So that’s basically a Trustmark that we have developed here in Washington state for cannabis producers, because right now it’s not required to test for pesticides on cannabis products in Washington state. If people come to us and have their product tested for pesticides, we will allow them to put that label on their product when it’s on the shelf. And that’s become an eye catcher for people when they’re in the store, people will actually walk in and say, “Have you done anything that has been tested with Confidence.” And the budtenders know, “Oh yeah. Boom, there you go.” It’s just a peace of mind thing.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. It’s marketing at the end of the day, but it’s good for you guys because you have built something where it said, “Look, if you’re doing it the right way, we will give you this sticker.” And for those who can’t see this, this is an audio podcast, he showed me a sticker. And if that sticker is there, it becomes a mark of, “I can trust these guys because they go to a lab that we know we can trust.” Unfortunately, not every State has that.

Pat Reynolds:
Correct. And that is only for cannabis products it’s not for hemp products right now although we’re looking to expand that program there. But in terms of looking for things where you can trust, Trustmarks like that are other things to look for our industry associations.

Matt Baum:
Yes. Definitely because it’s harder to get a bunch of people together in lying than it is to find a couple liars criminals [inaudible 00:32:08]

Pat Reynolds:
I hate to execute malice when ignorance can be an adequate explanation.

Matt Baum:
That’s true. Like the decimal thing that you said, math is hard,

Pat Reynolds:
But I get where you’re coming from.

Matt Baum:
We just have to be super vigilant even just with our site, when people are sending us stuff to try or they want it reviewed, or they want our thoughts on it, or they want to run an ad or they want to talk to me on the podcast. We have to be so careful. And we do a ton of research, just digging in like, what are they claiming where their lab results come from? Where are they growing? That State. Like, Oh wait, like what are the pesticide laws in that State and stuff like that. Because before we’re going to say, yes, try this. The Ministry of Hemp thinks it’s good stuff. It’s scary. Because like you said, there’s too many ways to misrepresent things right now because there is no FDA ruling. No, one’s looking over it. We are trusting good companies to be good. And luckily there are a bunch, but there’s also a bunch of bad ones.

Pat Reynolds:
Yeah. And look as much as I’m trying to deny the sensationalism, I’m not going to deny that there are bad actors out there. There are absolutely people out there looking to make a quick book. The going is getting tougher now that the competition is increasing.

Matt Baum:
Right.

Pat Reynolds:
So hopefully it’ll get less, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t still need to be vigilant.

Matt Baum:
Sure. So what’s the best thing that can happen tomorrow to take these bad actors, to just wipe them out and send them all packing and say, all right, what happens when the FDA saying, “Here are the rules you have to get tested, it has to be an accredited lab. You have to have the results.” Stuff like that?

Pat Reynolds:
That would be a huge step in the right direction. I mean, de scheduling, obviously.

Matt Baum:
Of course.

Pat Reynolds:
It’s the thing that’s going to just make all this go away. And de scheduling does so much more I mean, it is a whole research aspect. There’s the whole finance aspect of it. I mean we all know what the pieces are to make this tick. I reckon that’s why kind of the situation has been allowed to get to where it’s gotten to. And I mean, the industry is so big, it’s exploded. There’s so much money being made.

Matt Baum:
Right.

Pat Reynolds:
And being transferred around the place that’s why it hasn’t been just shut down summarily. Like I said, there’s just too much money involved. So hopefully people are going to step up and start making some rules that makes sense. And let’s not have another situation like we did with the USDA creating a set of rules that said your hemp crop needs to be certified as being less than 0.3% THC. And that needs to be done by DEA registered lab.

Matt Baum:
Yeah.

Pat Reynolds:
So all the States are running hemp programs go to their cannabis testing labs and say, “Do you want to do this for us?’ And we’re like, “Yeah, sure.” “Can we get a DEA registration?” And the DEA says, “No, you’re handling a controlled substance, cannabis.”

Matt Baum:
It’s brilliant.

Pat Reynolds:
You’re not getting a license still. It’s like, well, the USDA made these rules and-

Matt Baum:
Well, to fair the USDA, I think they just like shouted them out into the air without even thinking about it from what it seems. Because the DEA was the first one to show up and be like, “We don’t have time for that. Thanks.” Like you guys.

Pat Reynolds:
The conversations were, “Yeah, could you have not talk to us first?”

Staying optimistic about CBD testing

Matt Baum:
Right. Maybe that’s something that we could mention. I don’t know. You’re the guy behind the curtain with this stuff and you seem to be still very hopeful and optimistic. I mean, end of the day, does that mean you’re seeing more good products coming in being tested that actually represent what they are than bad?

Pat Reynolds:
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Matt Baum:
God, that fills my heart with joy. That’s good.

Pat Reynolds:
From a [inaudible 00:36:22] perspective for sure. Because I mean that’s the bulk of our business is cannabis products here in Washington State. Like I said, we’ve done some of that kind of media project testing. And we have a few CBD companies that are testing with us. And you’ll see their COAs on their website and stuff like that. But certainly I mean, from the state of cannabis products and edibles and tinctures and things like that when we were analyzing them four years ago, compared to the things that we’re analyzing today it’s night and day difference.

Matt Baum:
That’s wonderful news.

Pat Reynolds:
In the quality of the products stuff. Their merchandisation, the overall quality, the packaging, everything is just getting better because people are learning how to do it right. People fundamentally want things done right. That’s what I believe.

Matt Baum:
I think on the other side, there’s more education behind it too, where the people that are buying it, are actually looking into things now because they did get ripped off once or twice. And they’re not doing that again.

Pat Reynolds:
We sponsored a golf tournament a couple of years ago. One of the stewards on the course came up to me once he realized who I was and what we did. And he was like, “Hey, what do you do because myself and my wife, we like to get the edibles and what do you do when you have one that’s great and then you have another one that just makes you crazy. And it’s the same thing?” I’m like, “You need to find another brand because those brands don’t know what they’re doing.” Once it comes out from under the covers and people realize that there is recourse and they can go back and complain about these things.

Matt Baum:
Yeah.

Pat Reynolds:
Then the quality starts to get better because nobody wants to deal with the hassle. So it’s actually less trouble to do it right.

Matt Baum:
I like that. It’s less trouble to do it right. I like that a lot. That’s a good thing to live by. Thanks to Pat for coming on the show. He was so fun to talk to. And he’s one of those rare guests that came and found me after reading an article, we had about CBD scams on ministryofhemp.com and of course we’ll have a link to Confidence Analytics, more about what they do there and the link to the story we wrote about CBD scams in the show notes for this episode.

Final thoughts from Matt

That brings us to the end of another episode. I want to say, thanks again to Canvas for partnering with us, to bring you hemp education like this. And if you want to help bring hemp education to the people, head over to Patreon/Ministry of Hemp and become a Ministry of Hemp insider, it gets you access to podcast extras to early articles and all kinds of other stuff that’s only there for you guys, our patreons and I cannot stress how much it helps us in spreading the good word of hemp education. If you can’t get enough Ministry of Hemp in your life right now, you can follow us on all our social media at Ministry of Hemp/ Ministry of Hemp and check out ministryofhemp.com, where we’ve got an update to our best CBD gummies of 2020. This is the fall edition. And we’ve got a great video about CBD versus CBG. It’s a different thing. And we’re going to talk about it on the show soon.

At Ministry of Hemp, we believe that an accessible world is a better world for everyone. So you can find a full written transcript of the show in the show notes for this episode, I have got to get out of here though, and I like to do so the same way every week. I like to say, remember to take care of yourself, take care of others and make good decisions. Will you? This is Matt Baum with the Ministry of Hemp signing off.

A composite photo showing a scientist in gloves and a mask holding up a vial of CBD oil and a hemp leaf in a petri dish. A head shot of Pat Reynolds, the show's guest, is in a round insert to the main photo. Pat comes on the podcast to discuss the importance of CBD testing to identify safe and accurately labeled products.
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Matt Baum has been hosting, producing, and editing podcasts for almost ten years. He's been a touring musician, chef, journalist, and avid comic book fan for as long as he can remember. Currently, Matt lives in Omaha Nebraska with his wife Kacie and pugs Mable and Bobo.

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